The Moral Dilemma of a God

It’s been quite some time since I posted a God related posts in this blog. I remembered the last time I posted about this particular topic, it is about whether moral is subjective or objective. And to that revelation, now I shall elaborate the morals which God entails in the bible of mankind.

Being a God in most of the bibles, requires one to be omnipotent, benevolent, merciful, just, and all other loving things you can come up from your mind. However, the reality seems pretty bleak. The personality that humans presume from God is rather controversial in either the reality of life or in the bible itself.

In this post, I will do a breakdown on how controversial God’s personalities as claimed to be by major theists group are. The personalities I assemble are majorly from the big 3 religions Christian, Judaism, and Islam since the God which these religions represent are somewhat similar in terms of general perspective of moral. This discussion might be a bit bias to attacking Christianity viewpoint, but I’ll try to keep it general most of the time.

1. The Narcissistic God

To me, God has a narcissistic personality disorder. All of his commands to humankind is to worship and idolize him day and night. If you for one bit question his authority, then there will be severe punishment awaiting for you. God has unequivocally shows the symptoms of Narcissistic personality disorder such as:

  • Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
  • Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
  • Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
  • Requires excessive admiration
  • Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
  • Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
  • Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
  • Is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her
  • Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

God thinks that he is very important, that he needs full admiration from human. Forget being a good man and helping each other in need, if you are not a believer of his power, then you are not good enough to receive his blessing. God doesn’t like people who question or criticize him. He expect you to comply with his decision and no doubt shall crossed in your mind. God doesn’t care about others. Look what is happening in Africa with all the starving and war. Is that how a benevolent God should act? More elaboration of God’s narcissistic personality can be read in this link.

2. The Ignorant God

God is basically ignorant to the world he created. He is either ignorant, or he is just too weak, or maybe he just loves watching football. Everytime, I watch sports and look at the winning team’s comment, he will always praise God for making his team win the championship, while somewhere in Africa, thousands of people are starving to death. If you think God is just, then he has some priority issues. How could God prioritize to favor some ball game while he leaves other people starving?

3. The Hypocritical God

God is claimed to be merciful and forgiving to mankind. Yet, there is hell to torture people who sinned. This just makes God a sick guy who loves torturing people who don’t obey his command. Not to mention, you will spent eternity in hell for not believing in God. I, for one, am not a fan of the death penalty or a stoning punishment so the concept of hell is rather a disturbing notion to me.

Also, God is notorious for killing so many people that there is full of bloodsheds in the bible. There are so many verses in the bible that describes God as a very angry man slaughtering thousand of people. If God is really all that loving, this kind of act doesn’t put well on his resume.

4. The Sociopathic God

God, somehow has a multiple personality disorder. He created the universe with all the goods and the bads. He creates diseases which for example, people with no arms or legs since they were born. If he was just and all loving, why does he do this? What sins that a newborn did to deserve such disease when he is born. Is God testing them by giving all the agony and pain just to make sure that they will obey to him and beg for his forgiveness? If yes, then we have one sick God who loves torturing people just to test their faith.

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79 responses to “The Moral Dilemma of a God

  1. Nice, I love these posts. Thanks to this and another article I read, I realize I’m just a silly narcissist. I thought I was just full of it or something, but other people are like me too! Yes!

  2. Well, all we know of God is whats in the bible, but it wasn’t written by God, but written by a man centuries ago. Even if the original writer or writers did get most of it right, the true meaning may have gotten warped or twisted through the ages. As for the killings, stories such as The Great Flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah are not supposed to be taken literally in the first place (STORIES), and the rest of the killings (as well as the ones in history, i.e. Crusades) are just over-zealous and fanatical groups “killing in the name of.” Point being, we can never know for sure whether God is making things happen or is just watching us like we watch TV, or if he even exists for that matter, but we are all bound to find out. Other than that, very valid points were made. You’ve done your research and stated what you believe. From one person seeking answers to the other, you have my respect.

      • Most of the stories like that in the bible are meant to be stories to get across a main theme or point using a story someone would be interested in reading, but as I said, there’s no way to know for sure if the bible is even legitimate.

      • No, but that’s the simple joy of being an individual. To me, its not a question of “do they believe the same thing as me” its a question of “do I care if they believe the same thing as me” and the answer is flat-out no. I’m not on good terms with any church really. The basics of my beliefs is this “I believe there’s a god”, nothing more, nothing less, simple as that. My life’s too short to sweat things like religion. I do enjoy friendly conversations on the subject though.

  3. Ah I woke up to see yet another awesome post by Lucy. I like how you relate God to human personalities which may give people a hint that God is actually human himself or at least a human which one is aspire to be or worship.

  4. All these comments and what is written above are taken from non-christain point of views, the ones that get me the most are numbers 3 and 4, alot of people seem to think God is a bad guy without actually getting all the facts, God loves everyone and hates the sin in us, because it is us that we have fallen not him, and that is what people oftern get confused. The world is the way it is because of sin. I heard somewhere once, that we would need to share two worlds to be able to have food for everyone in the world. As for the bible, it wasn’t written by a man, it was written by many people of faith. And going to hell because of sin isn’t quite the answer, people go to hell because they dont beleive in God and did not accept him into their heart. What will get you into heaven? Beleiving that jesus died for your sins and gave his life for us and having a rellationship with him, that’s all. it’s very simple, We actually all should be going to hell for what we did, we are the ones who turned away from God. That’s why he sent jesus down for us. Everything that is messed up in the world is sins fault. And we are sinful natured, hence, why we compare God to human personalities.

    • See, that’s what sicken me. No matter how good a person you are, you won’t get to God’s heaven just because you don’t believe in his presence. Forget solving world hunger, noo you don’t deserve to be in heaven because you don’t accept Jesus. If God were to be compare as a man, who would be having a narcissistic personality disorder just like what Lucy have said.
      And the notion that we all should go to hell since we are a sinner when we were born, boy, what a loving God that is.

  5. First, I will apologize if I offend you or anyone else. But, I should state that you write the article because you don’t know God very well. Well, I will try to give you explanation about God’s character really is, based on my experience walking with God in my life.

    1. Why God created human in the first place?
    God is LOVE, and He is the most loving person in the world. Love need somebody to be given love to. As we say, we love our mother, our friend, our brother, love need someone to be given to. And in the first place God created human, so that He can love human. He did not create human just because He feel like it or just experimenting with our lives. No! He created us to love us.

    But then, Satan doesn’t like it and he tried to corrupt human, and he did it! Human disobey God and they sinned, and the relationship between God and human broke. God is holy, and without holiness, human can’t meet God. Human just can’t stand God holiness because they sinned, human’s holiness was taken away the moment they sinned. And do you think God is okay with that? No! He grieved so much about it. He love human so much, and when He know He can’t meet human again, His heart was broken. It’s just like, someone you love separated from you, and you can’t meet him/her anymore. Do you know what is it like? I assure you it’s really painful.

    2. Why did God kill so many people in bible?
    First, I want to tell you that God is Justice. And He has Law. Every sin that human made is the same as violation to God’s Law and it deserves punishment. It’s just like this, when you have a child, and you really love your child, but when your child mess up and make mistakes, don’t you punish him? Even though you love him so much. I will give you another example, when a person do a crime, won’t the government will give him the punishment he deserves? God kill people in the bible, because they must pay for their sin. And believe me, He doesn’t kill people just because He like it. He grieved so much when He has to kill those people, because He love them.

    When I saw your chart, God kills a lot of people, and Satan kills less. Let me tell you, that’s right. But, do you ever wonder who the main culprit is? It’s Satan. Satan is a big fat liar. What he does is to persuade His children (us/human) to violate the law. Then when human violate the law, He has no choice to punish them according to their sin. Many people died in the bible, killed by God, but that because their sin deserves death punishment. God was crying and Satan was laughing. That is the truth. Now, what do you think? Will you take God’s side or Satan’s side. There’s only two choice, there’s no way to choose in the middle, If you choose to follow God, you side with God. If you choose not to follow God, you side with Satan. That’s it. As simple as that.

    3. Is Jesus the only way to get in the heaven?
    The answer is no. Jesus is not the only way. He is one of the way. But! Before any Christian out there sound their protests, I want to explain it. Israel was given Ten Commandments, if they obey those commands, they will go to heaven. But, they can’t. So, God give them another way. God sent Jesus to earth and He died to replace human. We human should die, because we sinned, but Jesus took our sin and died in place of us. He just give one simple requirement, believe in Him, and you will be save. That’s it!

    Now, another question might arise. Or somebody may say that Christian is so egoistic, because salvation is only for Christian, and not for everybody else. I will explain it to you. The question is this, do others religion beside Christian can be saved and go to heaven without Jesus? Yes, they can! But! They must obey every inch, every sentences, every words, every characters in their bible without fail! They must follow the commandments in their bible perfectly. And now the question will change, can we as human follow those commandments perfectly, without fail? We still live in the flesh, our nature is to sin, we can never be perfect man. It’s simple actually. Let’s question ourselves, have we ever lying even just once? I believe we all have. Even, when we are just a child, when we got home from school, bringing our test paper with bad score on it, and when our mother asked about the test, we would tell her, “The test score is not yet announced, maybe tomorrow.” Without anybody to teach us, we are able to do sin perfectly. So, no man can live without do any sin. That’s the truth. And Satan is doing his best to make human sin.

    So, which path will you take? Will you choose to pay by yourself all to reach heaven, or you have Jesus pay for you to go into heaven. The choice is up to you.

    • 1. Yeah, then he created hell to purge you because you don’t love him. Awwwh, what a nice guy.
      2. Sure I will punish my child, but I won’t kill him. I’m not a fan of death penalty or stuff like that since it’s not very educational. I just don’t think one with such a great compassion for mercy will like to torture or even kill someone he loves.
      3. Then consider this, One guy rape an atheist girl and killed her. The girl is very compassionate to other people, caring, and helping when they need her. Are you saying she will go to hell just because she doesn’t believe in God, meanwhile the guy can get God forgiveness and return to his heaven if he ask for God’s forgiveness?

      • Okay, I will try try to answer your question here.

        1. Well, you say that hell is the place for people who don’t believe him so God doesn’t like him, so He put those people in hell. But! I tell you, God created hell because He love them. Why? Let me tell you, in heaven everything is exposed and nothing can be hidden from everyone in heaven. If a sinless person enter the heaven, the only things that is shown publicly in heaven are his good deeds. But, let me ask you, can people live without sin? When a sinful person enter heaven, do you know what will happen? Not only his good deeds will be shown, but also his sin! Every shameful things that he did is shown freely in the public! Do you ever imagine? Heaven is light, nothing can be hidden. I will tell you my experience, I will try to tell you this openly and not hiding anything. I remember when one time, I was watching porn and my brother and my parents knew about it. Do you know how embarrassed I was? I feel like digging a hole and hide there so that nobody will ever see me. In heaven, it will be shown publicly. That’s why even a sinful man go into heaven, trust me, he won’t like it there. He will ask God to place him into hell, where the darkness resides so that nobody will ever witness his crime. So, I tell you, hell is a goodness from God. And if you question me, why in the hell, human must be tortured, let me ask you, who torture human in hell? Satan right? Then why a lot of people blame God? Why don’t they blame Satan? Why must everything be blamed to God?

        2. Well, God is fair. God is also a Judge. He doesn’t immediately give death sentences to everyone who sin. He give punishment to everyone fairly according to their sin. As the law we have right now, it give punishment according to the crime people did. If someone stealing, he will get to prison for certain time and pay some fine, but if someone kill somebody, then the punishment will different. Also, God doesn’t give punishment without warning. Read the bible closely! He did warn them, He knew that what they did will bring punishment and death, but unfortunately only few of them did listen to the warning and God as a Judge have no way except to punish them. And one more thing, He never tortures human, believe me. If you say no, please give me an example. The one who persuade us to sin, and torture us when we sin is actually Satan. I can’t get it, when someone suffers they always blame God. Why do God always be the victim? Why don’t they blame Satan? Why do Satan free of all the blame?

        3. Well, I has just said it to you. If she is really sinless, then she will go to heaven. Jesus is just one of the way, not the only way. But, I tell you, kindness alone can’t get you to heaven. Kindness accompanied with sin is not enough. It’s must be kindness without sin that can get you to heaven. But, the question is there any person in this world that is sinless? Well, for the guy, if in the end he believes Jesus, he will be saved, but remember, he still have to pay for his crime in the world, he will still have to suffer the punishment he got from the government.

        For the final word, repentance is not a simple thing. You can’t do sin today and think that I will go to church in the Sunday and I will ask for forgiveness then in Monday I will sin again. That’s not repentance and believe me nobody can fool God. One day, sooner or later, everyone of us will meet God face to face, and when that time comes, we will have to take responsibility of everything we do in the world.

      • 1. Wow, I’m appaled by your opinion that states God’s fiery torturing place is the way God showing love. And I bet when you were caught watching porn, your dad doesn’t lashes you, right? Or burn you to death. Satan torture human? But who decides who goes to hell? Even more important, who created hell in the first place as a place for torture? Isn’t it God?
        2. Then what about those who are starving in Africa? What evil deeds did they do to receive God’s punishment? How about those who were born without limbs? Don’t tell me this is the blessing of God and in fact, no warning whatsoever given to them for their agony and pain. What’s the purpose of their suffering? To test their faith? Isn’t that a sick way to test someone faith?
        3. That’s what my point is. She can’t go to heaven can’t she since she is sinned in the eyes of God, no matter how much kindness she does in her life. Compared to her, the raper has a chance to go to heaven as long as he repent to God.

    • 1. I have a dog. I feed him, I pet him, and even though I love him, I still punish him when he does something wrong like, let’s say, when he digs a hole in the backyard and destroys the flowers. But it’s not like the food is just there when he wakes up, it’s not like I hide where he can’t see me and whisper “good boy” and I don’t punish him by throwing a rock from a distance or stop feeding him. He sees me during all that, he sees me when I pet him, he sees me when I hit him in front of the hole he made. The reason why he runs towards me, wagging it’s tail, when I get home everyday is because I’m there in all those situations. God just left us a note saying he loves us and then never appeared again and even if He punishes us, we can never see him and that punishment is never associated with the corresponding “bad action”. My dog sees me and loves me, but I can’t see God… what would my dog do if he couldn’t see me… he would probably bite me when I finally showed up.

      Also, yeah It’s incredibly painful to be separated from someone you love (believe me, I know. It’s been 13 years and I still feel like crying ever night…), but you don’t chain someone to a pole so they can’t run away. You may argue that I chain my dog to his house but let me tell you this: whenever he releases himself from his chains, I always find him sleeping at my door the next morning. Why do I chain him then? Let’s just say we all have enemies xD

      2. Well… I’m not gonna say anything about this because I guess one could consider death a type of punishment, although ultimate. Except for the last part where you say “… If you choose to follow God, you side with God. If you choose not to follow God, you side with Satan.” which I still won’t comment on because I think it speaks for itself…

      3. Now there is something you don’t hear from a Christian very often, acceptance of other religions. That’s a good thing.

    • Oh, in that case I want to embrace George Carlin’s religion just like what Kaza-kun’s has posted in his comment, a Sun worshipper. Now, can I go to heaven?

  6. I so very agree with this. Those who try to justify it are just blind. As Kazasou’s last post, the one with Carlin points out, is true. Hitler could be in heaven right now, as long as at the end he found God and truly beileved in Jesus Christ as his lord and Savior. What do you people say to that?

  7. ALso, so if those are just “stories” then why is not everything just a “story”. Or are the only parts that are made up to you, the parts you dont like. You like the believe in Jesus, do what you want you go to heaven, but why not go all the way. If you had sex outside of marraige, your an adulterer, I remeber a few passages about how to treat adaulterers, something about stoning, the same part of the bible that talks about being ay is wrong, and requires stoning as well.

    “In today’s society there’s a term for people who hate charity and love killing – Christian.”

    I mean, the highest number of divorce rates here in the US, is in the bible belt of the south, 90% of all republicans identify themsevles as christian, yet some the of the worse states for the death penalty is in the “bible belt” once again. I also cant rember the last time I heard a christain say “we should dedicate all of our extra resources to the poor, as that’s what Jesus said. Or do you people full of hate, only care to use the bible to justify your hate.

    I personally, love the Westbourough Babpist Church, as they are preaching more hate than any muslim I know, yet they are using passages in the bible to justify it…..Yup Thats what you get when you take the bible literally.

    Incidently…about “truth” and “stories”
    “Written in 1280 BC, The Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus… Horus is the son of the god Osiris… born to a virgin mother. He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer… who was later beheaded. Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert… Healed the sick… The blind… Cast out demons… And walked on water… He raised Asar from the dead. ‘Asar’ translates to ‘Lazarus’. Oh yeah, he also had 12 disciples. Yes, Horus was crucified first… And after 3 days, two women announced… Horus, the savior of humanity… had been resurrected.

    The fact that not all christains agree on everything, shows just how subjective chirst really is. I wonder who is right, the couple people posted here, and I wonder is those people posted here, believe the exact same thing, as isnt that what your suppose to do? Believe in God & Jesus wholheartedly, so how can there be a differences?

    Sorry for Ranting, but the fact I live in a heavily christian area, I get to see things all day long, what makes the Mormon’s, Catholics, Jehovas Witnesses, and just all the other Christians that all believe different things, the right one?

      • I saw that one as well. I believe Lucy is one of the best authors here. Always interesting & thought provoking to say the least.

      • Well, I think I have to give Kaza-kun for that since he is one of the people who I like to have discussion with.

    • That’s very interesting… Recently I changed my view on religion and it’s origins and in the middle of my conclusions I thought the story of Christianity to be something that was created to replace the knowledge that was lost when the Library of Alexandria was burnt a couple years earlier. But I didn’t know about the story you just mentioned. With that it’s much more likely that Christianity is just a reboot of such an old religion. I still think that said reboot was triggered by the burning of the library.

  8. The narcissistic God – That description fits incredibly well in a common rpg character, the Evil King xD
    To be honest, assuming the concept of an all-powerful God, the narcissistic God would actually be understandable, at least to some degree I think. I mean, if you can create matter from nothing I’d say that makes you pretty special and unique indeed.

    The Ignorant God – I’d say He would be more like willingly ignorant than just ignorant. I don’t think an omnipresent being would not know about something unless He just chose to turn a blind eye at it.

    The Hypocritical God – The greatest of Christianity’s contradiction. ‘I forgive the sinners but I also torture them’. Either our concept of forgiveness is wrong or there is some kind of line that when crossed grants you a first class ticket to hell. We will never know since we have only us to come up with concepts and such a line is never mentioned anywhere…

    The Sociopathic God – If one of those multiple personalities included Satan this concept is very enticing, but we can just as easily credit Satan with those diseases and stuff…

    I’m sorry, I can’t help but think that these views seem quite one sided =( , although I can see where you’re getting at with such concepts.

    I feel like your view of the Narcissistic God is the more accurate though when taking into account most of what Christianity tells us about such entity.

    Just to close this comment: Great post as always ;) Just try to take the Christians point of view more into account.

    • As for the title mention the moral dilemma of being a God, of course I have to take a general moral assumption of a God from the three different religions and try to present a contradictory statements to show my point. These are what most people think of their God and I just observe it with the reality that is happening in the world.

  9. Being good on earth also helps you know, it’s not “oh I beleive in God so I’m going to be bad and do whatever the hell I want.” God takes up everything you’ve done in your life and judges you, beleiving in him is the main key but being good also is important. Hell is simply a place where God is not preasent, that is why it’s horrible, it says there will be gnashing of teath and weeping. And I beleive I already answered those questions about africa and whatnot, it’s the sinful world we live in unfortuantly, that of course doesn’t mean you can’t pray about it. But, in saying that, God doesn’t always answer in the way we want it or think he will. It can take a long time, I prayed for about 4 years or so for a dog to come along in my life, and then one night there was an add for one in the paper, and he soon became our beloved pet. It’s about faith, and also, choosing to beleive it. But even in all this debate, remember that we humans cant change eachother, faith wise, only God can do that. That’s where the saying, “I was blind but now I see.” comes into it. Hitler was a terrible person, and we know he wasn’t a christain, so there isn’t really any point trying to bring that up. Christians are not perfect though and not easy, we all do bad things, thats’ why we repent. The road to ruine is wide and many go down it, But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    • Ha, helping them would be more productive than just praying. We don’t find cure for AIDS just by praying, but by researching for the cure. In short, action does 1,000,000 times more influence than just praying to imaginery character. Anyway, I digress….

      Hell is a place where God is not present? What does that actually means? That doesn’t erase the fact that he is the one who create it and put people in it.

    • Not sure where you are from moonlight. Here in the states this guy Governor Rick Perry, not to long ago, held a nice big prayer event. One of the things they were praying for, was for some rain to end the drought they are having. He has now had to go back to his state, becuase of the draught, there are huge fires. So I would assume hime & all the people that beilive like he does, are the wrong christians to follow?

      And how do you know Hitler was not christian? How do you know how he really felt in that fianl hour? I really dont see much difference, between hitler, the catholic church for most of its life, the Westbourogh baptist church, all the people that justified slavery through the bible, all the people that justify discriminating against women from the bible, all the people that justify hating anyone.

      The bible is filled with alot more hate, than it is with kindness…

      Something written in a “sacred” text 3000 years ago, that also mention, prohibitions against round haircuts, tatoos, working on the sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, playing with the skin of a pig (football comes to mind)

      What is your beliefe on Gay Marraige/rights?
      Deuteronomy states, that a marraige is only valid if the woman is a virgin, and she should be executed if she is not, and that anyone who commits adaultry should be stoned to death. Oh and adaultry is sex outside of marraige. So if you have ever had sex with anyone, you were not at that tiem amrried to, you should be stoned to death, wonder if your parents followed the same rule, or a sibling….I mean come on Bro, lets take the bible in all its glory and just go to town……Why pick and chose what parts we believe….remeber its ok if its in the bible, becuase the bible is the word of God, and its cant be false…

      I believe in morality which is doing right regardless of what I am told…not in religion which is doing what I am told regardless of what is right.

      You’re welcome to your own interpretation of the Bible and of politics, of course, but for me, I need more than “the bible says so” to justify certain things in this world, and certainly to judge them. The bible says alot of really horrible things……I cant just in good conscience ignore the bad stuff, and accept the good stuff, and neither should you.

      The word of God is truth, the bible is fact, you either believe this or you dont, so if you beleive, start more crusades, if not reflect on your life a little more, and ask yourself…

      If there is a God, why woudl you want to believe in one, who commands alot of stuff, that if you tried to do, would be looked on as Satan himself in a decent part of the world…

  10. God exists, and he’s not human. The Quran is way more legit than the Bible for it has never changed its content. If u believe in the Bible, it conflicts itself in many diff versions and and within each version itself on many topics. One gd example is finding out who the Bible states the Son of God is when there should only be one and one only as the Christians believe.

    Totally a must-see.

    • I’m sorry but you are out of topic here. We are discussing the moral conflict of being a God not proofing whether or not God exist.

  11. I think it’s pretty obvious hitler was not a christain, in fact, he wanted to kill them all/the jews. And it’s obvious to everyones eye he was wrong even if your not christain. You’re just fooling yourself to think that he would be in heaven. Just because something doesn’t go the way you want to once you think it’s the wrong thing to do? God isn’t a genie where if you pray once he’ll grant your wish, like I said things dont always go the way we want, we dont know Gods mind and why he lets things happen no one does. And you obviously haven’t read the bible if you think it’s full of hatred. Those things about adultry and whatnot were written for that perticular time, we dont do that anymore of course and are not ment to be taken literary in that sense. Christianity has one thing that every other religion does not, that you have a relationship with God/jesus. As I said, being good isn’t going to get you into heaven, having a relationship with jesus will. Sin is brought on by the fall of adem and eve who ate from the tree when they were told not to. Thus creating a gap betwen the relationship of God and his childen. And the punishment would be death, but, God loved us so much that he gave his son to die for us who was without sin, because we can’t save ourselves, as I’ve said before. It’s choosing to beleive but becaues you cant see, it’s very hard. Every religion has “commands” that you must obey,all of them, even your parents you have to obey them too. It’s just the same, obeying God the father just as you would your own father. And when we do bad we ask for his forgivness, and if you truely mean it, he does.

    • Oh , so when you see something you don’t like in the bible you said “We don’t do that anymore” or “it wasn’t meant to be taken literally”. I thought the moral given by God is absolute. Maybe you should read Lucy’s subjective morality first to re-evaluate your stance on the bible morality.

      By the way, did you know something called Wikipedia? Read it so you know Hitler better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views. How about the Norway massacre? Are you saying that Anders Behring Breivik is not a Christian either? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik. It’s an evidence that if you take bible seriously, you will end up like these guys.

      Proof that the bible contains hatred:
      2 Kings 2:23-24
      King James Version (KJV)

      23. And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

      24. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

      • I have read it, I never said it’s something I didnt like, I’m saying in our world today those things dont apply like they used to. Stop twisting my words, no need to be sarcastic with me but wikipedia isn’t always the best sorce. Hitler was a bad guy, the end, I dont know why you are defending him. He was wrong in what he thought. As for the bible containing hatred, it’s not the bible itself its what the people in there are saying. The King James Version has done us a disservice by translated the term as “children.” The Hebrew word can refer to “children,” but rather more specifically means “young men.” The fact that the bears mauled 42 of the youths indicates that there were more than 42 youths involved. This was not a small group of children making fun of a bald man. Rather, it was a large demonstration of young men who assembled for the purpose of mocking a prophet of God. Third, the mocking of “go on up you baldhead,” is more than making fun of baldness. The baldness of Elisha referred to here may be: 1) natural loss of hair; 2) a shaved head denoting his separation to the prophetic office; or more likely, 3) an epithet of scorn and contempt, Elijah not being literally bald. The phrase “go up” likely was a reference to Elijah, Elisha’s mentor, being taken up to Heaven earlier in 2 Kings chapter 2:11-12. These youths were sarcastically taunting and insulting the Lord’s prophet by telling him to repeat Elijah’s translation. He was a prophet of God and under Gods protection.

  12. Jesus was angry at people throwing stones too, he said to them, “he who has not sinned cast the first stone.”

  13. it is not God who kill people. its just their time has come. the God take their life because the God know that if that they live for a longer time , they will make a lot more sin. so He love them and took their life so that they will not make any more sin. the time He gave time to us so that we can repent to Him. God know the past, present and even future.

  14. @moonlight So then if those conditions were ever to meet, then it is okay to do so. How fascinating. Who said I’m defending Hitler? By moral, he is guilty for killing thousands of Jew. But it is your bible teaching that he can be forgiven if he were repent to God. If you say my source was bad, state another source to rebuttal it. Empty statement is just empty. Yeah, and about the bible, no matter they are children or youth demonstrating, the fact is God sends the bear to kill them all just because of mocking the prophet. I guess God hate free speech, huh?

  15. @????????? Terms terms terms. Who sets the time? God. Who take human life? God. Who kill the human? God. By the way, if God knows the past, present, and future, then there is no free will on mankind.

  16. Souza & Lucy, It’s refreshing for me to see 2 people that are on the exact same page I am.

    Makes me think I’m not completly nuts :) That being said, we all said essentially the same things, yet those who “believe” never want to hear any of it. I asked the same thing, how come when it’s convienent, you say the stuff that cant be defended does not aplly anymore. Well guess what, they at one time still happened.

    I don’t know about you moonlight, but I know, that I couls never belivei in any god who whould do/allow/command so many horrible things, then all of a sudden, say oopps, I had a bad few thousand years, it’s alright now, I sent myself, to sacrifice to myself, and now all that stuff I did that was so horrible, I won’t do again, oh except at the end when everyone who does not agree with me, I will do the same stuff again anyway.

    This does not sound like a loving/caring parent at all. Either narcicist, or a sociopath.

    If i come to your family, and for the next couple thousand years do horrible stuff, then all of a sudden say Hey, my bad, im different now, I love you and am tired of all these horrible things I have done, so I promise not to do it again, oh except when you die, your just going to start trusting me?

    If God truly loved us, every one of us, then 98% of the old testemant, would not have happened. If God is as you say all knowing/seeing/perfect, then he consciencely decided to do those things. Becuase God does not make mistakes, and If he consicnecly, did all those things, then he is a narcicist sociopath….

  17. I would just be repeating myself, as you guys refuse to come to terms with what I’ve said, it’s almost is if you want there to be a God who is cruel and tortures people and is never nice and just wants to see you all suffer. Shouldn’t you be glad that I’m saying he’s not like that? Do you think God was happy about letting those things happen? No, it’s the sinful world and our sinful nature. But no matter how many times I say it because you dont know, you wont listen unfortuantly, but there will come a time when you’ll know, if fact the whole world will know. It’s hope it’s not too late by then. God doesn’t have any disorder because he’s not human, those are human disorders. If hitler stopped what he was doing, and asked for God forgivness, tried to be a better person, and beleived that Jesus could save him and whatnot he probably could have gone to heaven , but he didn’t do that. So there is no doubt in my mind that he went the other way, it’s sad really. God isn’t happy about it I’m sure, but that’s the choice some humans make, not to follow him.

  18. Don’t feel like that, OnimenoJ. We are human, and reason is one way to keep us sane. Scientific evidence, research, and reasoning are what we have done up to this point that gave us vaccine, cure for polio, landed a man on the moon, and ultimately the internet. What does praying to God contribute to human society positively? None.

  19. @moonlight Of course I think God is cruel, you said it yourself. God has to kill human because he has to? Owh, with all the power vested in his hand, the only thing he can think to solve the problem is by killing people? I’m sorry, but us human society does a better job than God. If he has a lousy prophet who can’t pursuade people why doesn’t he go down and set things clear instead of obscuring himself into the cloud. Is that the act of a loving God? Hell no.
    Also, you can’t explain why the people in Africa are starving. One person said it’s because of the sinful world. And you think that’s just to give people suffering when they are born. The kids don’t know anything yet. That’s jut flat-out cruel way to test someone faith. If God were human, I would say he is a lunatic for doing that to his creation.

  20. @moonlight And you completely missing the point about the Hitler case. It’s not about whether he is in heaven or hell, but it is the notion that everybody can go to heaven as along as he repent to God for what he did. Meanwhile, those who did good in their life and never kill people would never go to heaven if they don’t believe that God exist. That’s one of the reason why God is cruel or unjust. Also, I would be happy if you tell me God is not cruel, but look at the evidence. Look at the reality. All the evil and suffering in the world, yet God can’t or won’t move an inch to solve that.

  21. @Souza You’re comment about God killing people makes no sense, perhaps you should tell me what evidence you have that makes God seem cruel. And actually, because you are all saying God not gods, you have acknowledged the fact that there is only one God, since I see no bad mouthing about hinu or muslim or japanese gods. It’s only adressed to the one, the christain God. I’ll say again, God does not have a personality DISORDER because he is not human and disorders are only of this world. God is perfect. it’s not just about repenting it’s about accepting jesus into your heart, and I dont ever see you comenting on that. Believeing that God exists wont get you into heaven, as I’ve stated over and over. Having a relationship with him will. There is actually plenty that he’s done you just haven’t done your research and only assume. But there is no convincing you no matter what I say, it’s just a tennis game, from one side of the court to the other.

    • What are you talking about? The evidence is in the writing of every bible, tora, or koran. The concept of God itself makes God’s cruel, the reality of starvation and suffering makes God’s cruel. Initially we are talking about God in a general way, then came you who endorse Christian God. It would make no sense if I were to make a rebuttal with a Hindu or Islam God since you are a Christian, get it? I do not acknowledge any God, I just set the assumption of God just for the sake of of discussion, since this discussion is not about proofing whether God exists or not.
      I thought you get what the discussion is all about, but I guess it’s clear that you do not. Yet you fail to grasp the discussion again, I’m saying that wouldn’t it be not fair if a person doing good the entire of his life without ever believing or having a relationship with God be smited down in hell while a rapist who rape and kill a person gets a chance to heaven if he repent to God.
      How about the God’s past where he has to kill people to solve problems? Are you saying the most omnipotent being who has every power in the universe can’t come up with a wise solution other than killing? I have come up with various of evidences based on your bible and now all you have to do is address this issue. What more evidences do you want?

  22. The evidence you have come up with I have disproved but you just refused to accept or acknowledge it, Since you haven’t read the bible, it’s not fair for you to call your claims as truth. It is like talking to a brick wall, I wasn’t trying to proove that God existed, I was saying that your consept of it is wrong. Again and again, it’s all about relationship if there is no relationship weither you are good or not, there will be no heaven. There is nothing that ever says God has to kill people to “solve” problems, there is no solving for God he doesnt need to think he already knows everything. In any case this could go on forever I’m tired of talking to a brick wall. I’ve made my point, you have all the information their to explore yourself if you want.

    • Haha, like I’m not talking to a brick wall. For your information, you didn’t disprove anything I said, in fact you accept that those writing are indeed what happen. Indeed, God sent the bears to kill the youths, indeed God creates hell to torture humans (I thought torturing is forbidden in most theistic teaching), indeed God did nothing to solve suffering and starvation in Africa.

      Let me tell you how you fail to disprove me. You say there is nothing that ever says God has to kill people to “solve” problem. Yet, God did kill people in some cases. Noah’s flood for example. Just because he did a lousy job in convincing people to follow God, then God sent flood to drown all the people? Talk about your just God. In the 2 Kings, God sent bears to maul 42 youths just because they mock the prophet. Indeed, you disprove me by saying those are not children, those are young men mocking the prophet. Yet, you feel now it’s okay for them to be killed? How riddiculous.

      And this is what I hate about most about theists when they are debating. When they are cornered and doesn’t have anything to rebute the argument, they flee and say, “Explore yourself if you want”. Maybe that’s why your prophet did a lousy job pursuading humans up to this point.

  23. how do you know that God do nothing to the people in africa ? some of the state in africa has begun to develop such as somaliland. and the state in trying to help other state as well. the God is always fair. the suffering and starvation is only the test that God give them.

    • Yes, God really likes to test someone faith by torturing them, doesn’t he? And your example doesn’t involved God at all. It’s the humans who help each other.

  24. Hell is a place without God, it was not created by God. It’s not there so God can torture you, there, your theory is disproven. God has done plenty of things to help those starving in Africa, why do you think they have missionaries that go there to deliver food, disproven. God helps not just by his being and saying I’ll zap away all the suffering in Afica he does so through people, like missionaries.God rewards people who are good, but punishes those that are bad. if you had actually looked at what it says in the bible God said this: The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.And God looked upon the earth and was sad, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. “Go into the boat with all your family, for among all the people of the earth, I can see that you alone are righteous.” Yes God did kill those people, but only because he saw his world had become so evil that he had to wipe it, everything. That’s where you are missing the point, God doesn’t just kill for no reason, he did so because of the evil world and people. And then, God said I will place a rainbow in the sky after the rain had stopped, “”I will never again curse the ground because of the human race, even though everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood. I will never again destroy all living things.” And he made a rainbow to remind him and us of what he had done. And again, yes it was okay they were killed because they were mocking God, in mocking his prophit, I’m sure you would be angry at someone who mocked your father or something like that, it’s the same thing. So that is also disproven. And I knew you would call it as “fleeing” or “loosing” but its not about winning or loosing, it’s hard to talk to someone who wont even try to look into what I’ve been saying. If you truly think I am wrong then look in the bible and find that I’m false.

    • Your saying If i come call your mother a slut, who does’nt deserve to lick my taint clean, your first reaction is to kill me? Really? I mean if thats god’s reactiion, then he is worse than a narcicist.

      “The earth also was corrupt before God, ” WTH does that mean, he failed as a creator? or he came upon the earth and saw it? Also, me persoanlly, if i created literally everything, I wold not have created a tree, that would destroy my “greatest” work. Why is the option there in the first place?

      Also, why did god not make woman @ the same time as man, i mean what was the backup plan? if ia m making 2 of every creature, male & female, why would I not create man the same way, male & female right away? was it just going to be 1 dude forever, till God saw he was lonely?

      not the mention i shudder at the thought, that we are all desencede from 2 people 6k years ago, talk about incest to the max, lol,

      also, was it God that let us live with Dinosaurs? and everytime we had an impact from a meteor, Godf protected us, and not anything else? i mean what kind fo shit is that, why not be God, and i dont know, not make meteors, i mean if you can see everythig, far into the future, then alot fo what god does makes no sense at all, maybe the special tree he ate from was some shrooms or something, cause for a guy who can supposbly see the furture, and know everything going on, sure has dropped the ball on alot of shit.

      oh also, Your mother is a slut who is not even worthy of licking the sweat off of my taint. Now come and kill me, since if thats god’s response it must be ok to be yours, as we as humans can never be as good as him

    • Then hell just pop up out of nowhere? Hmm, kinda contradict to the fact that God creates everything doesn’t it? See, that’s my point, again you confirm that God kills people to solve things, in this case violence. He is not a fan of diplomatic move isn’t he? Yes, I will be angry if someone mocked my father, but I will not go around killing him just because of that. That’s just barbaric. The starving people in Africa is solved? No it doesn’t! Yes, there are missionaries that are helping (and they are humans by the way), but the starvation is not ending. God is not intelligent enough to provide the people with a land that can grow good crops or disease-free. Why do the African people deserve such punishment by God? What did they do that makes God think that they deserve in starvation and disease-ridden state? You, all the people, help them but God just won’t bother to help them.

  25. Yes I know I talked about it and found out that yes he did create hell since he did create everything, so, apologies on that. They dont deserve starvation did you ever think that it’s not simply about that, it’s also to do with their corupt government. I’ll say again, God works through people. Of course you wouldn’t go around killing someone, but this isn’t just someone this is God, the creator of everything and the most holy being, if people said that to the musilms god, they would be shot on the spot most likely. They’re seriously mocking God here, not just playing around.Not to mention the man was a proffit. But since you’re never going to beleive me no matter what I say, what exactly do you beleive in yourself?

    • I don’t care if you are Moslems, Christians, Jewishs, or even Atheists, killing because of mocking can’t be justify in any circumstances. So, the thing you said about God works through people, can he only work through people? Because, the Bible clearly state that God can work on his own e.g sending bears, floods, and bunch of stuff to wipe out humans. In that case, God can wipe out humanity if he determines to do so but he has to work through people to help the starvation in Africa? So I guess, again you are contradicting yourself.
      It’s not that I’m not going to believe you ever, but so far your statements have been contradicting, so how could I believe in such contradictive statements, right?
      If you are asking about what I believe in terms of morality, I think Richard Dawkins have been an inspiration in this video:

      P.S: Wow, you are really very narrow minded about moslems going to shot people on the spot for mocking their God. Does your religion not teach you not to judge people? What a hypocrisy.

  26. Lol, there you go again mocking me yourself. You’re the one jumping to conlusions as soon as I slip up, “oh wow! You must be such a hypocrite for saying that, your completly wrong ect”. I am human you know and allowed to make mistakes, sure I’m sure not all of them are like that, but I wouldn’t put it passed at least some of them. It’s very judgemental of you. Nothing I’ve said is contradicting, God does both obivously, your argument was that God never helps the starving people. And I said that he does, but it also can be through people. now your assuming that God only helps through people and that’s all. Its both. He could wipe out humans, but he wont. He’s not like that because he loves us. And before you go on saying he did so with the flood, he warned them about it, and no one beleived Noah, so they all died.As the world was so evil. And that’s the reason why you dont understand, because you dont know God.

    • Yeah, but you didn’t say “some of them” did you? You in fact enbolden your statement with “most likely” which is a frivoulous claim with no basis. You can make mistake, but remember, mistake cost you a reprimend action, which I guess you are still claiming your statement as it is. Even when you correct your statement to “Some moslems do shot people in the face when you mock their God”, it’s still a frivolous claim with no basis. Where did you see such news? Aren’t you spreading lie by claiming something that doesn’t exist?
      And here we go again, you basically use your previous arguments which I have already previously disproved, and I’m not in the mood of copy pasting again.
      You claim me that I do not understand, and this come from a person who judge moslems will shot you on the spot if you were to mock their God ‘most likely’? This assertion came from a man, that killing a person who mocks their father is commendable? If you are not a hypocrite for what you have said, then I don’t know who you are.

  27. Of course you dont, because you dont understand. And talk about copy and paste, I could have done so 5 times with the ammount of times you’ve ignored what I said. Anyway I’m tired of this argument, I do hope you’ll see one day. But until then, let’s just let this go and continue with our lives.

    • If I may be a judge in the debate of both of you (although I know I have conflict of interest here):
      1. kazasou was having a problem with an atheist can’t go to God’s heaven no matter how good he is since he don’t believe in God. Moonlight confirm that believing in God is the main key but being good is important. So, Moonlight confirms what kazasou have said.
      2. kazasou was contemplating about starvation in Africa and how God doesn’t help them with the starvation. He complains how unjust God is by not giving the same chance for all humans to live. Moonlight argue that it’s the sinful world that causes the starvation and we have to pray on it so the starvation can be solved. Moonlight also added, God sent mercenaries to help the starving people. However, what about those who already died because of the starvation or doesn’t have the chance to believe in God because of his illness. What about those who are not helped by the mercenaries? The implication remains why God would send down his wrath by intervening but he won’t do the same thing in helping people.
      3. kazasou addresses that God kills people for frivoulous things such as mocking the prophet. Moonlight said that’s because they are mocking the God, the supreme being, and also added that God has to do it although he is not happy with it. She also commended the killing because if someone mock your father or family, you have the right to do so. Moonlight also added that it is okay to do that since moslems also most likely will shot you on the face if you mock their God. Then, moonlight correct her statement to say it was just “some” moslems, which in my opinion doesn’t help in justifying why God kills people for mocking the prophet. However, the fact still remains God kill people because they mock God and the prophet.
      4. The Hell’s dilemma. kazasou was asking why hell is created by God. Why God have to torture people for their sin? Isn’t torturing cruel? Moonlight argue God didn’t create the hell, and change her mind because God creates everything. Then, the discussion is still remained open.
      5. God’s power dilemma. kazasou was complaining why God doesn’t use his extraordinary power to solve the starving in Africa. He also added that it’s a sick way to test someone’s faith (I’m assuming he is going for if Africa deserves starvation, why does Japan don’t since they are mostly atheistic nation). Moonlight argue God works through people and also he can intervene somehow. However, moonlight doesn’t present what kind of intervening did God do for helping the starve kids in Africa. Moonlight then gives a contradicting answer, that God won’t wipe out humans, while in the past he did so.
      6. Noah’s flood case. kazasou was complaining how God doesn’t like diplomatic way in solving things since he wipe out the humans who defy God by sending flood. Moonlight’s rebuttal is that God gave them warning first, but in the end wipes out the humans anyway.
      There are other issues that I skipped, but I guess this is the main interests that were debated so far. I hope I don’t make any mistake in doing such reviews.
      – Edited Moonlight’s gender issue, by kazasou.

    • Wow Lucy, you are a great moderator in making this review. I hope it’s clear with this review that I’m not the one who is ignoring moonlight’s arguments, but all the arguments he have made so far never disprove how God uses violence in solving most things.
      God may be sad or dislike using the method he uses, but it doesn’t erase the fact that he is cruel in doing so in the past. Blood has been shed and the bible is tainted with the blood of humans he dislikes.
      Anyway, I’m getting my arguing habit goes again, it’s time for me to stop here.

  28. Actually I’m a girl. And I already did argue about God’s “narcissistic behavior” which all of them are wrong, because it’s beening looked at through human eyes. God is love. So there is no lacking of empathy. Why do you think he wiped them out? The world was full of evil, and still is. People die everyday, maybe God wants you to help starving people why dont you do something about it?, Its the selfishness of people that causes the starvation. What would you have God do? It’s a much bigger picture the just letting people starve. And what are the “most things” that your talking about Kazasou? Be specific.

    • No you don’t. The argument from you which states “God is love” is to justify why God creates hell. You didn’t address why God demanded humans that they have to love him and only him, and send you to hell if you don’t. If God is love, he wouldn’t kill the ones he love, would he? Unless, he then starting to loath them.
      Again, you confirm that God won’t intervene to help people in Africa. He expects you to do it. I guess he is much motivated to intervene when people mock him then helping humans who he loves by the way….
      And don’t give me that crap about God is not human so he is just and loving in everyway he does. If a supreme being is this arrogant in not considering his creations’ moral perspective then he is an unjust ruler.

  29. Hell is a place where people go who do not love or beleive in Jesus a plce without God. He doesn’t demand that we love him, hence why you dont, and we have choices. And he didn’t kill the ones he loves we did I already gave you that answer a number of times. Again, you ignore what I say and/or take it the wrong way, I just said he helps through others, and also through other means, If you’re so consirned about Africa maybe God is calling you do to something about it. I dont know all the answers as I’m only human myself. That’s why God sent his son to die for us, to save us from Sin because he cares for us so much. Of course God isn’t human, all religions say that, no matter which one. Read the bible and find out for yourself instead of assuming he’s arrogant.

    • Yes, thank you for confirming that if you don’t love God then hell is the place to be. So no matter how good you are, you still will end up in hell if you don’t believe in him. God’s narcissistic behavior is confirmed from your statement there.
      And again you don’t seem to grasp my argument about the starvation in Africa case here, so I won’t bother copy and pasting again.

  30. That’s not God’s narcissistic behavior (because he doesn’t have it, they are human disorders.) That’s just the truth. That’s why God gave us a choice. And for the record, no one is truely “good” we’ve all done bad in our lives, whether it’s thinking, doing, ect. So no it’s not about how good you are because none of us are good. What defines good? But it’s nice to see you have an interest in this. Only Jesus is truly Good.

    • No he doesn’t, how could you say he gives us a choice? It’s like me saying “Hey love me, or I will tie you on a pole and lashes you until you die”. You think that’s a fair choice? That’s flat-out threatening. And again you fail to grasp the discussion about the good quality of humans that God assess to determine which humans go to heaven and which go to hell.

  31. God Will Not Demand Death to Innocent People in the Bible.

    Nowhere in the Bible can you find a verse where God demand the death of innocent people. Maybe, the one asking such question is not innocent, but ignorant of the Bible. There is a great difference between innocent and ignorant, and these people that malign God can not say that they are innocent because they intentionally mislead people by their questions.
    —Truncated due to massive size—

  32. Unfortuantly you’re the one failing the grasp it, the choice is what you’re doing right now. Choosing not to beleive. No one is forcing you to beleive in God or jesus. That is choice.

  33. Read the new testament,with a bit more of an open mind, mathew and john. That will help you. I’ll pray that Jesus opens your eyes. :)

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